From: robert@plamondon.COM (Robert Plamondon) Newsgroups: rec.guns Subject: I Love My Curios & Relics License Date: 10 Oct 1994 15:56:38 -0400 It's been a few months since I got my Curios & Relics FFL. This is a special, restricted Federal Firearms License that lets you buy and sell "Curios and Relics," which include all firearms made before 1946 and additional ones on a long list the BATF publishes. This is particularly helpful if your area of interest is old military weapons, since they are being imported at low prices in vast numbers by companies such as Century Arms. RESULTS * I have a lot more guns now. * You end up buying things wholesale. Most of the war-surplus rifles I've bought cost $50 or less, with none over $100. (You can get just about any bolt-action rifle except Springfields, Krags, and Mannlicher-Shoenauers for under $100 if you wait around long enough. Mausers, Enfields, Carcanos, Berthiers, Nagants, Arisakas -- you name it. Most of these can be had for $40-$60. * Pistols are cheaper, too. The most expensive pistol I've ever bought cost $159. The Broomhandle Mauser and the Webley cost even less! DISADVANTAGES You have to keep simple records for gun purchases, and fill out some form or other when you sell things (they give you a bunch): you know, the form you fill out when you buy a gun in your capacity as an ordinary mortal. Still the BATF could come in and give you a hard time if they ever got really bored. The law is written, though, so their "inspection" of your collection can only happen once a year, and you can choose to have it occur at their office rather than your home. Their right to peruse your records is less restricted (so they can backtrack gun purchases as part of a criminal investigation, presumably). The BATF knows who you are, if they didn't already. They get to do a background check on you, of some sort. While you're allowed to buy and sell, you're supposed to be "collecting," not "running a business." While in my case I'm outside any grey area -- by the simple expedient of never selling anything -- you could get into trouble if you did too much dealing, especially if you succomb to the temptation of buying things for your friends. Don't do it! (Instead, sell them stuff you've had for a while, and buy a more interesting gun with the proceeds. Selling stuff in order to buy better stuff is part of collecting.) You can get tangled up in state and local laws, especially if you sell to a non-FFL holder. Since you have a (restricted) FFL license, most laws don't apply to you when you buy, or when you sell to another FFL, but your mileage may vary. Here in California, all sorts of weird stuff can kick in when I sell to a non-dealer, though Curios and Relics are, I think, mostly exempt. I didn't find these disadvantages very daunting, so I pressed on. HOW TO GET ONE I looked up the BATF in the Government Pages in the phone book. Look under US Government/Treasury Dept. I forget whether it's ATF or BATF. That'll get you the local office. Alternatively, call the all-purpose Information line (800-555-1212) and get their 800 number. Tell them you want to apply for a "Curios and Relics Federal Firearms License." All my phone conversations with the BATF have been with helpful and knowlegeable people, so I doubt you need to know the form number or anything like that. (I think the people they put in Enforcement are the ones who can't learn basic office skills -- part of the BATF that doesn't tote guns seems to be pretty competent.) I got my application in the mail the next day. The form asks the same stupid questions you answer every time you buy a gun. It asks virtually no other questions, so you're not telling them anything they don't already know. You fill out the form, append a check for $30 (it's a three-year license, so it costs you a whopping $10/year), and wait six weeks. I got my license in the mail first, then weeks later I got the instructions to go with it. They included a copy of the Red Book, plus a couple of pamphlets about which end is up, and a bunch of the forms whose number I still can't remember, though I've referred to it three times now. DON'T sign the license! Make xerox copies of it, and sign the copy when you send it out someone you're buying guns from. BUYING GUNS Basically, I've only bought guns from importers: Century Arms, Navy Arms, S.O.G., Springfield Sporters -- people like that. Here are my thumbnail reviews: CENTURY ARMS: Appears to be the market leader. I've bought a number of guns from them. All shipments have been exactly as advertised. Once they forgot to include a promised bayonet, but their courteous customer support people tossed it in the mail right after I called. They definitely keep FFL licenses on file, so after mailing them a copy of your FFL once, you can order over the phone or by FAX. Most orders take about 30 days to arrive. When you call, you are likely to stay on hold for a long time. (I order by FAX for this reason. I also like to have a record of what I ordered, which is harder with phone orders.) S.O.G.: Has a selection similar to Century's. Answers the phone more promptly, ships promptly. A good bunch. NAVY ARMS: Weirder stuff than Century, which makes me like them better. Good prices. I haven't ordered from them enough times to have a good idea of their phone or shipment delays, but I don't think they're record-breaking. SPRINGFIELD SPORTERS. Seems to be split into two kinds of gun offerings: Stuff that everyone wants (Mausers, Enfields, Springfields, Garands), which they headspace, test-fire, and offer in sporterized and original versions; and other stuff, which they make you sign a waiver indicating that they don't know whether it's a gun or a pinata. The guns in the latter category are "odd" guns: Carcanos, Berthiers, Dutch Mannlichers, and such. A lot of these are guns I've seen advertised nowhere else. Springfield Sporters takes at least a month to ship anything. They have really good prices on a lot of things, such as used M1 carbine magazines, eight for $5 (or was it 5 for $8? A bargain, either way). The guns I bought from them (A Carcano and a Berthier) were as advertised or a little better. ORDERING GUNS You gotta have a subscription to SHOTGUN NEWS, or you just aren't living. SHOTGUN NEWS PO Box 669 Hastings, Nebraska, 68902 800-345-6923 It costs $20/year, and is published three times/month). I know of no comparable way of becoming aware of what's out there. Guns come and go, so a rag like SHOTGUN NEWS is a necessity. For example, my wife has a sporterized Model 1891 Carcano that keyholes at 50 yards. I want to move the stock onto a Model 1938 Carcano Short Rifle. Six months ago, everyone had them for $40-$50. Now, nobody has them. Anyway, look at the ads, pick what you want, write out an order, enclose a signed copy of your C&R FFL, enclose payment, and, some day, the UPS man shows up with your gun. Most of these places keep your FFL on file, so you can make subsequent orders over the phone. GRADES OF GUNS Guns are advertised by grade. You need to know what the grades mean to figure out how beat up your gun is going to be: FAIR - "In safe working condition, but well worn, perhaps requiring replacement of minor parts or adjustments, which should be indicated in the advertisement, no rust, but may have corrosion pits which do not render the article unsafe or inoperable." In short, a "project gun." At a minimum, you'll need to do some stock work, repolishing, and rebluing. You may need new parts. Guns in this condition can be restored if you care enough. Normally, I'm too lazy. GOOD - "In safe working condition, minor wear on working surfaces, no broken parts, no corrosion or pitting that will interfere with proper functioning." In other words, it works, but it looks like it's been through a war. The stuff I buy in Good condition needs lots of cleaning and beautifying, but turns out okay with a little work. GOOD TO VERY GOOD - An unofficial category, meaning that it looks nice, but not as nice as a "Very Good" arm. Most of the stuff I buy is in this category. They're pretty respectable as is: just take them completely apart, clean them, and put them back together. VERY GOOD - "In perfect working condition, no appreciable wear on working surfaces, no corrosion or pitting, only minor surface dents and scratches." In other words, a very nice piece indeed. EXCELLENT - "New condition, used but little, no noticeable marring of wood or metal, bluing perfect (except at muzzle or sharp edges." HAND-PICK FEES Also called "hand selection" or "special selection," this is an extra amount of money you can pay, presumably to get a better specimen than if you didn't pay. Hand-pick fees usually range from $10-$20, and you always gotta wonder if they aren't just pocketing the money. Century Arms doesn't offer a hand-pick fee on every item in stock. Sometimes the fee selects for quality, sometimes it lets you select for manufacturer. Since it varies, and because the results have been so good, I think they're really grading guns and setting the best ones aside. Since they won't even take your money to hand-pick some guns, I get the feeling they only offer it if you'll get your money's worth. I have a less warm feeling about everyone else, but I often pay the fee anyway. What the hey. If nothing else, it gives you better grounds to bitch and moan if the gun is slightly below grade, and you want to exchange it or get your money back. EXAMPLE Century Arms advertised a Carcano carbine in for $49.95, in "Good to Very Good" condition. Other people were advertising them in "Good" condition for $39.95, but the half-grade difference is well worth ten bucks. No hand-pick fee was offered: I suspect they separated their Carcanos into two entirely different part numbers, sold at the two different prices. The rifle arrived about a month after I ordered it, in a cardboard rifle box padded with newspaper. Other than the invoice, it came with no documentation at all. The carbine had been heavily greased, including the stock. The barrel was full of Cosmoline, indicating that no one at Century had test- fired it. (And why should they? Most of their guns to go "real" FFLs, who are presumably capable of forming their own opinions of guns, do their own headspacing and testing, etc.) A lot of rags, paper towels, and WD-40 later, I had a VERY nice Carcano -- perfect bore, shiny bolt, more or less undented stock. Of course, I recommend that you take YOUR guns to a gunsmith for inspection and headspacing. I did the inspection myself. Headspace gauges for 6.5mm Carcano are non-standard, so I measured the gun's headspace by firing it at the range and seeing if it blew up, which it didn't. (I wear safety GOGGLES -- not safety glasses -- when doing this, and only load one round, so the magazine can form a convenient gas escape port if the cartridge should rupture.) Including shipping, this gun cost me under $60. Had I bought it through my local retail gunsmith, he would have tacked on a $25 fee, plus $14 for California folderol which the gun is exempt from, being a "relic" -- but he "isn't taking any chances." This added $39 can double the cost of a cheap rifle. I know a discount gunsmith who only charges 10% mark-up, and as far as I can tell, would cheerfully charge a $4 mark-up over actual cost if I ordered a $39.95 rifle through him. This is nice, and I use him for what gunsmithing I don't do myself on my own guns, but I far prefer dealing with the wholesalers directly, and having the guns delivered to my own door. CONCLUSION If you like old guns -- and, particularly, if you like the kinds of surplus guns advertised in magazines like SHOTGUN NEWS -- the Curios and Relics FFL puts you directly in the game: no middlemen, no mark-up. Even if you are not interested in guns for their historical interest per se, it might still be worthwhile, since the state of the art in guns has barely advanced since WWII, and many interesting post-WWII guns are on the BATF's Curio and Relic list. My particular passion in pre-WWII military guns (preferably pre-WWI), which means I'm the C&R Poster Boy. -- Robert